Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
topped off level of 2000 lbs.
They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.

Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
O2. Is that OK?

Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
PA32-260 N5594J

I've been told by some that they charge mechanic labor rate for
doing the filling.


"Bruce McFadden" > wrote in message
...
>
> Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
> even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
> al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
> 415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
> bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
> topped off level of 2000 lbs.
> They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
> small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
> O2. Is that OK?
>
> Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
> PA32-260 N5594J
>
>
>

Legally you have to use ABO (Aviator's Breathing Oxygen). The only
difference is supposed the quality assurance for contaminants such as
water. My oxygen supplier gets them from the same source and tests it
all to better than ABO standards. He ships bottles marked ABO to
those who require it. Check with some of your local suppliers and
they'll certainly be cheaper than any FBO.


On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:28:55 GMT, Bruce McFadden >
wrotD:

>
>Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
>even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
>al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
>415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
>bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
>topped off level of 2000 lbs.
>They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
>small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
>Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>O2. Is that OK?
>
>Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
>PA32-260 N5594J
>
>


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Bruce McFadden > wrote:

> They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
> small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.

> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
> O2. Is that OK?

When travelling, I've had to pay those kind of prices. Piracy. At home I
have a local medical supply outlet fill my E sized tank for $16. At that
price, I don't bother with trying to set up a self filling rig using
welders oxygen.

If I wanted to do that, though, I'd get a copy of "Oxygen Hackers
Companion" (http://www.airspeedpress.com/newoxyhacker.html). It goes into
a lot of details beyond aviation oxygen and is very well written.



--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

Don Hammer > wrote:
> Legally you have to use ABO (Aviator's Breathing Oxygen). The only
> difference is supposed the quality assurance for contaminants such as
> water. My oxygen supplier gets them from the same source and tests it
> all to better than ABO standards. He ships bottles marked ABO to
> those who require it. Check with some of your local suppliers and
> they'll certainly be cheaper than any FBO.


Bunk.

I refer you to http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

This topic has been beaten to death over the years... Search the
archive and you will have enough reading to keep you up past bedtime...
Yes, they are sucking your wallet... You can fill your tank from any
larger oxygen tank... No, there is no difference between medical O2,
breathing O2, welding O2, etc... It all comes from the same tank of
liquid oxygen at the supplier, delivered in the same truck with the
white frost on it, and piped in through the same hoses as he goes from
factory, to hospital, to welding shop, etc...... If you can't find the
archived material drop me a private email and I'll discuss it
further...

Do a quick test next time you night fly... Climb up to 8K or so, level
off, notice the ground lights, turn on the O2, notice the ground lights
get really bright and suddenly have colors to them..
Denny

Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
ever will take the RX.

Blanche Cohen > wrote:
> Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
> it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
> ever will take the RX.

Actually, the local medical supply house had no problem filling my
aviation oxysten tank without a RX. You might want to ask them before you
bothered your Doc.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:47:53 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
> wrote:

>Blanche Cohen > wrote:
>> Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
>> it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
>> ever will take the RX.
>
>Actually, the local medical supply house had no problem filling my
>aviation oxysten tank without a RX. You might want to ask them before you
>bothered your Doc.

Different states have different requirements. Don't ask why, it must
be those same crooked politicians.

Don Hammer wrote:
> Legally you have to use ABO (Aviator's Breathing Oxygen). The only
> difference is supposed the quality assurance for contaminants such as
> water. My oxygen supplier gets them from the same source and tests it
> all to better than ABO standards. He ships bottles marked ABO to
> those who require it. Check with some of your local suppliers and
> they'll certainly be cheaper than any FBO.

Which regulation requires this?

Matt

Frank Stutzman > wrote:
>Blanche Cohen > wrote:
>> Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
>> it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
>> ever will take the RX.
>
>Actually, the local medical supply house had no problem filling my
>aviation oxysten tank without a RX. You might want to ask them before you
>bothered your Doc.

I did. Most issues like this are state-regulated. Locally, the
medical supply houses won't fill without an RX. Find out what the
state or local rules are.

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:

> Don Hammer wrote:
> > Legally you have to use ABO (Aviator's Breathing Oxygen). The only
> > difference is supposed the quality assurance for contaminants such as
> > water. My oxygen supplier gets them from the same source and tests it
> > all to better than ABO standards. He ships bottles marked ABO to
> > those who require it. Check with some of your local suppliers and
> > they'll certainly be cheaper than any FBO.
>
> Which regulation requires this?
>
> Matt

I wouldn't be surprised if it's in some part 121/135 op-specs, which is
as good as being a regulation.

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>
>>Don Hammer wrote:
>>
>>>Legally you have to use ABO (Aviator's Breathing Oxygen). The only
>>>difference is supposed the quality assurance for contaminants such as
>>>water. My oxygen supplier gets them from the same source and tests it
>>>all to better than ABO standards. He ships bottles marked ABO to
>>>those who require it. Check with some of your local suppliers and
>>>they'll certainly be cheaper than any FBO.
>>
>>Which regulation requires this?
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if it's in some part 121/135 op-specs, which is
> as good as being a regulation.

Not if you aren't a 121 or 135 operation.


Matt

Our FBO charges $40 for a fill of my tanks, regardless of size. I took it to
our local compressed gas dealer, and they refused to fill the tank, since it
required ABO, which is tested to a higher standard than welding oxygen or
medical oxygen, even though they all come from the same source.

It was totally a cover your ass philosophy- I even told them it was OK by me
to fill with welding oxygen, but they refused due to liability reasons.

Regardless, it will last a reasonably long time at altitude- perhaps the
best advice would be to get a portable oxygen sat meter and just keep your
sat above around 92. Measure your sat at ground level and turn on enough
oxygen at altitude to keep your sat at this level and this should be pretty
conservative.

Ok... here's the skinny..

My frame of reference: Paramedic for 15 years, RN for 6. I've worked
with "cascade" filling systems for 10 of those years in my capacity as a
firefighter.

As someone else said: this has been hashed out before. I'm sure I've
posted lots of detail on this in the past. Some new info tho.

All the oxygen comes from the same source. Gas plant makes it by
liquifying air then distilling the fractions. Its then either shipped
liquid, or vaporized and compressed and shipped in tanks. AFTER its been
distilled and packaged its then labelled. Again.. its all from a common
source and spec.

Up until about 8 years ago I used to refill my own (employer's) portable
medical oxygen tanks (D and E cylinders) from H and M size cylinders. At
that time, some agency interjected themselves in the process (FDA??) and
increased the regulatory requirements for medical oxygen. To be sold as
medical oxygen, the tanks must be numbered so they can be tracked. Upon
empty return, the tanks must be taken down to a vacuum, THEN refilled.
This has essentially ended the LEGAL practice of refilling and
dispensing MEDICAL oxygen containers by the end user. They all get
filled and sealed up the distribution chain.

Aviation oxygen and Welding oxygen do not have these sort of inventory
and vacuum requirements. They also dont have the cost associated with
it. Truth is, now, at the vendor level, the medical oxygen will cost
more than the others.

I priced this not too long ago, and the gas vendor I talked to quoted me
something less than the aforementioned $40, and tank "rental" was $2
month for the non-medical oxygen and $5 month for the medical. You haul
the tanks back and forth and exchange empty big cylinders for full. THEN
you just have a hose and pigtail put together to do your own filling.
Get a 2-bottle "welders cart" and you can put two cylinders on a wheel
around cart and refill your oxygen system MANY times for the cost of the
$40 you spent (not counting startup equipment costs, which should be
about $100 for some high pressure braided hose and fittings).

The "downside" of non-medical oxygen is that if the tank is run
completely dry, to atmospheric pressure, then there is the risk that
contaminants in the air will be drawn into the tank if it's LEFT open to
air. These contaminants can then be placed under pressure and inhaled
later. Marginal to minimal risk, but present nonetheless.

So.. can you do it? Well. I WILL. I already have the rig planned, and
the vendor chosen. I will have the spec sheet on all gas I take delivery
of, and I will make sure it meets the requirements of "aviation oxygen".
I wont be providing it commercially. It will be for private use. And I
plan on a big enough system that I wont be needing to fill it away from
home. I have a bottle from a firefighter's breathing system that is
fiberglass wrapped aluminum. It weighs HALF of what an alum E cylinder
weighs and has double the capacity.

If you plan on doing your own fills, its not rocket science but IT CAN
HURT/KILL YOU if you dont pay attention. Get the vendor to show you the
proper way to transfill. Make a "filling station" out of steel pipe.
Take your time - go slow. ABSOLUTELY NO GREASE OR OIL ANYWHERE near the
valve, fittings or couplings. It will be a BAD DAY if you dont heed the
last one.

Dave

Bruce McFadden wrote:

> Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
> even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
> al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
> 415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
> bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
> topped off level of 2000 lbs.
> They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
> small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
> O2. Is that OK?
>
> Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
> PA32-260 N5594J
>
>
>

Great link, thx. Must have missed that one.

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

I tried to get our Medical supply house to file mine but they have to have
the Rx, I think I'll talk to my AME.

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

I quote from the FAA and related regulations (these are the only one's
I found that do not related to altitude, equipment, etc.)


AC 43-16A - Aviation Maintenance Alerts, #36, July 1981
"Do not confuse aviators breathing O2 with hospital/medical O2. The
latter is
pure enough for breathing but the moisture content is usually higher which
could freeze and plug the lines and valves of an aircraft O2 system)....
Aviators breathing oxygen going into aircraft oxygen systems should meet
the purity and moisture specifications as contained in Military
Specification MIL-0-27210: purity - 99.5 percent by volume (minimum);
moisture - 0.005 milligrams per liter of gas (maximum)."


AC 65-9A - A & P Powerplant Mechanics General handbook,
Chp 11. Ground servicing
" Only oxygen marked "Aviators Breathing Oxygen" which meets Federal
Specification BB-0-925a Grade A or equivalent may be used in aircraft
breathing oxygen systems."

SAE AS 8010 Aviators Breathing Oxygen Purity Standard.

So -- there are no mandatory regulations that I could find. So if
the supplier's O2 meets the MIL spec or Federal Spec, there should
be no argument.

*sigh*

I really got to get a life...

Blanche Cohen > wrote:
> I quote from the FAA and related regulations (these are the only one's
> I found that do not related to altitude, equipment, etc.)


> AC 43-16A - Aviation Maintenance Alerts, #36, July 1981
> "Do not confuse aviators breathing O2 with hospital/medical O2. The
> latter is
> pure enough for breathing but the moisture content is usually higher which
> could freeze and plug the lines and valves of an aircraft O2 system)....
> Aviators breathing oxygen going into aircraft oxygen systems should meet
> the purity and moisture specifications as contained in Military
> Specification MIL-0-27210: purity - 99.5 percent by volume (minimum);
> moisture - 0.005 milligrams per liter of gas (maximum)."


> AC 65-9A - A & P Powerplant Mechanics General handbook,
> Chp 11. Ground servicing
> " Only oxygen marked "Aviators Breathing Oxygen" which meets Federal
> Specification BB-0-925a Grade A or equivalent may be used in aircraft
> breathing oxygen systems."

> SAE AS 8010 Aviators Breathing Oxygen Purity Standard.

> So -- there are no mandatory regulations that I could find. So if
> the supplier's O2 meets the MIL spec or Federal Spec, there should
> be no argument.

> *sigh*

> I really got to get a life...

Yeah, that's what the avweb article said (about the regs, not you life).

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

Don,

> Legally you have to use ABO (Aviator's Breathing Oxygen).
>

Nope.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Bruce,

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

That's all "Cover Your Ass" stuff that if not interpreted well enough
will tend to cost you more money. Why not check the numbers on the
modern gasses. You may find something interesting, and remember that
you're filling portable bottles, not system bottles. When was the
last time it was freezing inside your cabin?


On 24 Dec 2004 05:25:24 GMT, (Blanche Cohen)
wrote:

>I quote from the FAA and related regulations (these are the only one's
>I found that do not related to altitude, equipment, etc.)
>
>
>AC 43-16A - Aviation Maintenance Alerts, #36, July 1981
>"Do not confuse aviators breathing O2 with hospital/medical O2. The
>latter is
>pure enough for breathing but the moisture content is usually higher which
>could freeze and plug the lines and valves of an aircraft O2 system)....
>Aviators breathing oxygen going into aircraft oxygen systems should meet
>the purity and moisture specifications as contained in Military
>Specification MIL-0-27210: purity - 99.5 percent by volume (minimum);
>moisture - 0.005 milligrams per liter of gas (maximum)."
>
>
>AC 65-9A - A & P Powerplant Mechanics General handbook,
>Chp 11. Ground servicing
>" Only oxygen marked "Aviators Breathing Oxygen" which meets Federal
>Specification BB-0-925a Grade A or equivalent may be used in aircraft
>breathing oxygen systems."
>
>SAE AS 8010 Aviators Breathing Oxygen Purity Standard.
>
>So -- there are no mandatory regulations that I could find. So if
>the supplier's O2 meets the MIL spec or Federal Spec, there should
>be no argument.
>
>*sigh*
>
>I really got to get a life...

Blanche Cohen wrote:
> Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
> it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
> ever will take the RX.
>
Only if you really want to see hassles of price and paperwork.

The local medical oxygen place for us IS also the welding and
ABO outlet.

Almarz > wrote:
> That's all "Cover Your Ass" stuff that if not interpreted well enough
> will tend to cost you more money. Why not check the numbers on the
> modern gasses. You may find something interesting, and remember that
> you're filling portable bottles, not system bottles. When was the
> last time it was freezing inside your cabin?

Not to mention that welding tanks are used outdoors in all sorts of
weather. If it survives winter in Alaska, it'll survive on the plane.

Almarz > wrote:
>That's all "Cover Your Ass" stuff that if not interpreted well enough
>will tend to cost you more money. Why not check the numbers on the
>modern gasses. You may find something interesting, and remember that
>you're filling portable bottles, not system bottles. When was the
>last time it was freezing inside your cabin?


Freezing inside the cabin? Today. Right now.

As for the CYA -- the OP was asking about the regs. I cited the regs.

On the other hand, I did find something interesting in the avweb
article that I either had forgotten or never knew -- about the
hydrostatic testing of the tanks at periodic intervals...Guess I need
to deal with it next year....

Almarz wrote:
[...]
> modern gasses. You may find something interesting, and remember that
> you're filling portable bottles, not system bottles. When was the
> last time it was freezing inside your cabin?

Careful about that one. As any gas is released from the tank it expands and
will cool down significantly. That's why you get frost on e.g. propane
tanks. And there have been fatality diving accidents when regulators froze
in above-freezing temperatures because of the expanding gas.

jue

Advisory Circulars aren't regulations.

> I cited the regs.

>Which regulation requires this?
>
>Matt

Probably not a regulation, but virtually all my maintenance experience
has been with larger corporate-type jets. You are certainly required
to follow the manufacturer's recommended maintenance program if that
is your election or an FAA- approved program of your design. In
other words, as a 91 operator you select your program under
91.409(f)(3) or (4). All maintenance manuals I've been involved with
specify only ABO.
A Part 121, 125, or 135 program will drive it for those operators. I
can guarantee the NTSB did a hard look at the bottles of the charter
operator that was carrying Payne Stewart. Did it cause his accident?
Probably not.

As a side note - it's not only the source of the oxygen, but how its
stored. I've seen in-service welding bottles full of rust that got
that way from being stored flat with the valve open. I'm sure if you
went directly to a good supplier, what you get would be clean. I will
confess I've done a bit of mountain flying in gliders and the local
carborundum mine supplied us with all our oxygen. We all lived. Would
I suggest it to others as a licensed mechanic? No way - I wouldn't
know what to say on the witness stand.

Another side note. Just because someone posts something on a web site
of bulletin board doesn't make it law - that includes me. We each
have to make ourselves aware of all information that applies to what
we are doing. Any of us are free to take chances with our own lives,
but we can't do the same with those of our passengers. I would suggest
a pilot is probably not the best source of good maintenance
information even though our egos make us think we are all experts.
There are many reasons why the safety record of small aircraft is so
bad compared to others. (Your insurance man knows) The person making
the maintenance decisions is one of them.


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Blanche wrote:
> Almarz > wrote:
>
>>That's all "Cover Your Ass" stuff that if not interpreted well enough
>>will tend to cost you more money. Why not check the numbers on the
>>modern gasses. You may find something interesting, and remember that
>>you're filling portable bottles, not system bottles. When was the
>>last time it was freezing inside your cabin?
>
>
>
> Freezing inside the cabin? Today. Right now.
>
> As for the CYA -- the OP was asking about the regs. I cited the regs.

I thought you cited Advisory Circulars. They aren't regulations.

Matt

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Blanche Cohen wrote:
> > Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
> > it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
> > ever will take the RX.
> >
> Only if you really want to see hassles of price and paperwork.
>
> The local medical oxygen place for us IS also the welding and
> ABO outlet.

Considering the process for making it (O) is the same, why would the
manufacturers establish different facilities for something that is 100% the
same product?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Blanche Cohen wrote:
>>
>>>Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
>>>it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
>>>ever will take the RX.
>>>
>>
>>Only if you really want to see hassles of price and paperwork.
>>
>>The local medical oxygen place for us IS also the welding and
>>ABO outlet.
>
>
> Considering the process for making it (O) is the same, why would the
> manufacturers establish different facilities for something that is 100% the
> same product?
>
>

So they can charge more for some of the product.

Matt

Matt Whiting > wrote:
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> > "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >>Blanche Cohen wrote:
> >>
> >>>Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
> >>>it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
> >>>ever will take the RX.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Only if you really want to see hassles of price and paperwork.
> >>
> >>The local medical oxygen place for us IS also the welding and
> >>ABO outlet.
> >
> >
> > Considering the process for making it (O) is the same, why would the
> > manufacturers establish different facilities for something that is 100% the
> > same product?
> >
> >

> So they can charge more for some of the product.

Ummm, no.

Manufacturers generally don't establish separate facilities for 100%
identical products, especially for bulk products like oxygen, and
definitly not for a tiny market like aviation oxygen.

Distributors however quite often do, along with different paper trails
to satisfy various governmental mandates.

For non-bulk items, e.g. vacuum hose for cars versus airplanes, a manufacture
will often set up separate testing and marking lines, again to satisfy
various governmental mandates.

The total amount of aviation oxygen sold in the US in a year probably
wouldn't keep one small plant busy until lunch time; the manufactureres
could care less.

Look to your government, here to help and protect you with briefcase in
hand, if you are looking for someone to blame.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> > "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >>Blanche Cohen wrote:
> >>
> >>>Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
> >>>it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
> >>>ever will take the RX.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Only if you really want to see hassles of price and paperwork.
> >>
> >>The local medical oxygen place for us IS also the welding and
> >>ABO outlet.
> >
> >
> > Considering the process for making it (O) is the same, why would the
> > manufacturers establish different facilities for something that is 100%
the
> > same product?
> >
> >
>
> So they can charge more for some of the product.


But it's not the dealers that are differentiating in this case.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>>>"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Blanche Cohen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Another approach is to have your physician write you an RX then take
>>>>>it to either a medical supply house or ambulance company, which
>>>>>ever will take the RX.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Only if you really want to see hassles of price and paperwork.
>>>>
>>>>The local medical oxygen place for us IS also the welding and
>>>>ABO outlet.
>>>
>>>
>>>Considering the process for making it (O) is the same, why would the
>>>manufacturers establish different facilities for something that is 100%
>
> the
>
>>>same product?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>So they can charge more for some of the product.
>
>
>
> But it's not the dealers that are differentiating in this case.

No kidding. The poster said manufacturer's and that is what I was
referring to. Anyone who thinks this doesn't happen, hasn't a clue
about marketing. Basically the same product is sold to different
markets at different prices all the time. This isn't a new trick.


Matt

I have not noticed a reference to Deakins article on this in AVWEB...
Look at:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

Denny

On 24 Dec 2004 05:25:24 GMT, (Blanche Cohen)
wrote:

>I quote from the FAA and related regulations (these are the only one's
>I found that do not related to altitude, equipment, etc.)
>
>
>AC 43-16A - Aviation Maintenance Alerts, #36, July 1981
>"Do not confuse aviators breathing O2 with hospital/medical O2. The
>latter is
>pure enough for breathing but the moisture content is usually higher which
>could freeze and plug the lines and valves of an aircraft O2 system)....
>Aviators breathing oxygen going into aircraft oxygen systems should meet
>the purity and moisture specifications as contained in Military
>Specification MIL-0-27210: purity - 99.5 percent by volume (minimum);
>moisture - 0.005 milligrams per liter of gas (maximum)."
>

That might have been true 20 or 30 years ago, but I think the change
in the way it's produced was farther back than that.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger > wrote:
[snip the ACs]
>That might have been true 20 or 30 years ago, but I think the change
>in the way it's produced was farther back than that.

True, but has the FAA gotten the word yet?

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:28:55 GMT, Bruce McFadden >
wrote:

snip

>Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>O2. Is that OK?

snip

Looks like you've gotten pretty much the full range of replies, but
I'll throw mine in-it's worth just what you paid for it.

My understanding, from talking to people familiar with the gas
business, is that there is indeed zero difference in the raw O2
dispensed.

They also tell me that bulk medical tanks are "purged" once,
inspected, and filled. ABO tanks are "purged" twice, inspected, and
filled. Welding tanks are given a quick conformity inspection and
filled.

While it is the same product, obtained from the same process, welding
O2 quality/contamination is not monitored to the same extent as ABO or
medical O2. This does not mean that welding oxygen will be
contaminated, it just means that the other types have passed slightly
more than a rudimentary inspection.

With regard to the cost of your tank fill, hopefully the person doing
the filling has received at least a little training, is earning a
decent wage, and is using clean, quality equipment.

We useta charge $35.00 to $50.00 for an official ABO fill, and if
there was any profit margin, it wasn't much. It was primarily offered
as a service to customers that needed it.

TC

wrote:
>
> They also tell me that bulk medical tanks are "purged" once,
> inspected, and filled. ABO tanks are "purged" twice, inspected, and
> filled. Welding tanks are given a quick conformity inspection and
> filled.

Where and how often? What I mean is this. I go down to a shop in Piscataway to
get my welding bottles filled. They exchange bottles there, so I actually just
pick up a new bottle. Is the "bulk bottle" the one they give to me, is it a
storage container they keep, or is it even further up the supply chain?

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 05:23:12 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
wrote:
>>
>> They also tell me that bulk medical tanks are "purged" once,
>> inspected, and filled. ABO tanks are "purged" twice, inspected, and
>> filled. Welding tanks are given a quick conformity inspection and
>> filled.
>
>Where and how often? What I mean is this. I go down to a shop in Piscataway to
>get my welding bottles filled. They exchange bottles there, so I actually just
>pick up a new bottle. Is the "bulk bottle" the one they give to me, is it a
>storage container they keep, or is it even further up the supply chain?
>
I'm not sure how big your supply company is, but I can tell you what
happens with mine.

When I drop off a tank, I get a new one that has been inspected and
filled at the welding supply company. Smaller wedling shops get
shipments of tanks pre-filled from the larger ones.

I think this is what you were asking. Hope it helped. I'd never get
an aircraft oxygen tank filled at a welding supply shop.
z

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 06:04:35 GMT, zatatime > wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 05:23:12 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>> They also tell me that bulk medical tanks are "purged" once,
>>> inspected, and filled. ABO tanks are "purged" twice, inspected, and
>>> filled. Welding tanks are given a quick conformity inspection and
>>> filled.
>>
>>Where and how often? What I mean is this. I go down to a shop in Piscataway to
>>get my welding bottles filled. They exchange bottles there, so I actually just
>>pick up a new bottle. Is the "bulk bottle" the one they give to me, is it a
>>storage container they keep, or is it even further up the supply chain?
>>
>I'm not sure how big your supply company is, but I can tell you what
>happens with mine.
>
>When I drop off a tank, I get a new one that has been inspected and
>filled at the welding supply company. Smaller wedling shops get
>shipments of tanks pre-filled from the larger ones.
>
>I think this is what you were asking. Hope it helped. I'd never get
>an aircraft oxygen tank filled at a welding supply shop.

Our local supplier supplies welding shops, hospitals, and industry
I'm pretty sure one branch also supplies aviation, but perhaps Dennis
knows more specifically.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>z

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 05:23:12 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
wrote:
>>
>> They also tell me that bulk medical tanks are "purged" once,
>> inspected, and filled. ABO tanks are "purged" twice, inspected, and
>> filled. Welding tanks are given a quick conformity inspection and
>> filled.
>
>Where and how often? What I mean is this. I go down to a shop in Piscataway to
>get my welding bottles filled. They exchange bottles there, so I actually just
>pick up a new bottle. Is the "bulk bottle" the one they give to me, is it a
>storage container they keep, or is it even further up the supply chain?

Kinda depends what type of facility you have locally. Some facilities
just ship out empties, and ship in full "exchange" bottles.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, by bulk tank, I was referring to the
typical 4+ foot tall bottle, opposed to a walk-around size O2 bottle.
I've got a set of small oxy/acet tanks that were given to me years
ago. Initially, I had to purchase a different acet tank (at a reduced
cost, trading in my obsolete tank). I pay a higher "exchange" rate
when swapping tanks. If I was leasing tanks, the "exchange" fills
would be cheaper.

"Welding" O2 tanks are inspected for hydro date, and the valves are
given a look see to ensure condition, and that they aren't valves
subject to replacement (there are bulletins occasionally against "bad"
valves). Any required repairs are accomplished, and they are filled.

"Medical" and ABO tanks go through a similiar process, but are
"purged" prior to refilling.

Our ABO exchange tanks come from somewhere outside of the local
facility, usually with only a couple of days lead time.

TC

wrote:
>
> I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, by bulk tank, I was referring to the
> typical 4+ foot tall bottle, opposed to a walk-around size O2 bottle.

Thanks. All clear now. Even though they're smaller, my torch bottles meet that
definition of bulk tanks.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:08:49 -0500, Roger
> wrote:

>>When I drop off a tank, I get a new one that has been inspected and
>>filled at the welding supply company. Smaller wedling shops get
>>shipments of tanks pre-filled from the larger ones.
>>

>
>Our local supplier supplies welding shops, hospitals, and industry
>I'm pretty sure one branch also supplies aviation, but perhaps Dennis
>knows more specifically.


I guess you're one notch above in the supply chain.

z

Roger, my source of information is the guy who drives the liquid oxygen
truck... In the past he delivered to all customers from the same
truck...They now have a large truck they use mainly for hospital and
larger industrial deliveries from Flint to Traverse City, because of
the volume required at each fill... They have smaller trucks that
deliver to small volume customers, welding shops, etc. because the
small trucks can back down the alleys, and get into tight areas more
easily... . He said the hardest part when his employer bought the
big tanker trucks and split off the smaller routes was teaching the new
drivers how to find the back alley shops all over the state he had been
delivering during the previous 15 years... He is literally a walking
street map... Name a town and an intersection from Flint, north, and
can usually name the businesses in the area...

I suspect there are increasing regulations on ABO tanks at the retail
level simply due to the need for the folks who work at various levels
of government to justify their salary, office, and secretary... But the
bottom line is that if you are going to use oxygen in the plane and
fill the tank more than once a year, you are money ahead to buy a pair
of brand new 80 cubic foot, welding oxygen bottles ($140 each) and the
adapter hoses (~$100) and refill the airplane bottle yourself... You
get the 80CF bottle refilled at the local air gas dealer or welding
shop for $14 (here in Michigan, ymmv)... For those who feel that this
simply cannot be safe because it doesn't cost enough, go ahead and pay
the Airgas dealer $50 for each refill..

Denny...

"Viperdoc" > wrote in
:

> Our FBO charges $40 for a fill of my tanks, regardless of size. I took
> it to our local compressed gas dealer, and they refused to fill the
> tank, since it required ABO,

The next key word is "or equivalent" !!

> which is tested to a higher standard than
> welding oxygen or medical oxygen, even though they all come from the
> same source.

Actually, welding oxygen has a higher purity requirement than either
medical or ABO.

But hardly matters... if they don't want to do it, not much point in
arguing with them.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:39:14 GMT, wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:28:55 GMT, Bruce McFadden >
>wrote:
>
>snip
>
>
>We useta charge $35.00 to $50.00 for an official ABO fill, and if
>there was any profit margin, it wasn't much. It was primarily offered
>as a service to customers that needed it.
>
>TC
>
Then you were getting ripped off big time. Too bad, you should have
been able to make a few bucks for the danger involved, anyway.

Because medical O2 vendors never "fill" bottles. They simply exchange.

Robert M. Gary > wrote:
> Because medical O2 vendors never "fill" bottles. They simply exchange.

Speak for yourself.

The medial O2 vendor that I use never hand a problem doing a fill on my
tank. Its an E sized bottle and he just mixes it in with the rest of that
tanks he fills that day.

The downside is that he has to have it over night. The upside of the
downside is that he will deliver it to my place of work the next day free
of charge.

If anybody in the Columbia River Gorge area needs a tank filled, I'm using
Mid-Columbia Medical Equipment in The Dalles.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

On 27 Dec 2004 04:56:45 -0800, "Denny" > wrote:

Thanks,

>simply cannot be safe because it doesn't cost enough, go ahead and pay
>the Airgas dealer $50 for each refill..

Would they charge that much at AirGas when a full size refill is only
$10 to $14?

OTOH, I already have one tank and it wouldn't take much to get
another. I lease mine, but there is little difference in cost and
it's all up front. Besides, if anything happened to me they could
just return them. $100 for the filling line really isn't much and I
think it'd be worth it just for night flying.

Owning brings up some other issues.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Denny...